Job 2:3
The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”
- Who is this God who offers up him who he considers to be the “blameless and upright” to a Satan intent on causing suffering wherever he goes? Why does he do it? I could argue it was pride. God saw Satan’s words as a challenge, his pride was threatened and he offered up his servant as a sacrifice to proving Satan wrong. But isn’t pride a sin? And then later he never explains himself to Job, even though it could be argued that God was the CAUSE of his suffering, but instead insults him and essentially says “How dare you, stupid and lowly human, question ME – God of the Universe???” And in the end, how nice it was of God to bless him with twice as much as he had before. But could more sons and daughters serve to make up for the loss of his first? I am not a mother yet, but I dare say, “HELL NO!” It’s insulting. As if this God could take everything away from Job, give more of what he took back to him and be worthy of praise because of it!? I’m not buying it.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 - God speaking.
“‘In this place I will ruin the plans of Judah and Jerusalem. I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies, at the hands of those who seek their lives, and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth. I will devastate this city and make it an object of scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds. I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.’
- God is love???
Exodus 3:7-8
The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey…”
- Either he hears some and not others or he hears all and chooses NOT to help some???
Exodus 7:3-5 - God speaking.
But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”
- Perhaps Pharaoh could have been persuaded, could have been reasoned with…but we’ll never know. God could have at least given him the choice. Instead God “hardens his heart” and in turn deprives the people of Egypt (composed of people just like you and me) of clean water to drink, he filled the land with frogs and gnats and flies, he spread boils over the bodies of the innocent, he killed the firstborn of all Egyptians…who is this God? A murderer?
Exodus 11:4-5
“This is what the Lord says: ‘About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of the Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well.’
- I’m not even sure I can be mad at the Pharaoh. The way it reads, it could be argued he had no choice in the matter. I’m afraid to say it, but I think you can guess where I’m thinking the blame might fall…
Exodus 21:20-21
“If a man beat his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.”
- I may be reading between the lines here just a bit but did I just hear God condone slavery?? He not only condones it but he condones the severe BEATING of human beings – HIS CREATION, his creation which he claims to LOVE.
Numbers 21:2-3
Then Israel made this vow to the Lord: “If you will deliver these people into our hands, we will totally destroy their cities.” The Lord listened to Israel’s plea and gave the Canaanites over to them. They completely destroyed them and their towns; so the place was named Hormah.
- Looks like God does take sides in war afterall. Maybe God is not as much a fan of peace as I thought he was…
1 Samuel 19:9-10
But an evil spirit from the Lord came upon Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand. While David was playing the harp, Saul tried to pin him to the wall with his spear, but David eluded him as Saul drove the spear into the wall. That night David made good his escape.
- Since when does God have evil spirits under his control??
Luke 6:27-29 - Jesus speaking.
But I tell you who hear me: “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also…”
- And here comes Jesus…son of God…(arguably)one of the trinity…one with GOD…who brings a completely different message. Has God “who was and is and is to come”, God “who remains the same” changed? If not, how do we account for the discrepancy?
These are just a few excerpts…I could probably go on for pages and pages…filling them up with scriptures that conflict with each other (and one might argue, are out of context), scriptures that go against what I’ve been taught is the nature of God.
I’d say that it FRUSTRATES me.
I’d say that it CONFUSES me.
I’d say that it MAKES ME ANGRY.
All of those things would be true. But right now as I’m writing this, my most overwhelming feeling is SADNESS.
IT BREAKS MY HEART that it’s so easy for me to find evidence which only fuels my doubt and disbelief. I want so much to find my way back there…to the faith I once had…and then I remember all the times the Bible disagrees with itself, all the unflattering depictions of a God who I’d LOVE to believe is a God of love, a God of second chances, a God of grace, of mercy, of forgiveness, a God who hears the prayers of the people, a God who works things for good and not for evil, a God who cares about the pain we endure, and seeks to heal us from it, a God who wants to bless us, and protect us. I’m not so sure I could ever truly believe that anymore…and it breaks my heart.
And to that most Christians would reiterate the paraphrase.."how DARE you question the God who gave you life". So easily I identify with your questions and your doubts. They are my own along with many more. We want to take the warm and fuzzy thoughts of the God of love. "I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, says the Lord", Jeremiah 29:11. But we also want to turn a blind eye to the God who says "For God so loved the world that he gave is only begotten son that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life". We want to believe His love is unconditional but if you don't believe just the right thing, He's the God who condemns as well. Yeah, yeah you could say that we condemn ourselves. But what if we want to believe, but we just can't? What if we've never had the opportunity? What if we don't say just the right words, or behave just the right way? Then what?
ReplyDeleteFaith[less],
ReplyDeleteI don't know what to say to make the sadness lessen, because you will probably be going through a rollercoaster of emotions in the next weeks, months, and possibly years. Take heart that there are many others who are struggling on a similar journey and will help you as best they can.
@D'Ma - I know - HOW DARE I?? And to be honest I get a little scared every time I think, talk about, or write down anything that sounds like I'm challenging God or his perfect nature...I think that's just the church upbringing in me though. If he's real and if he's as big and bad as they say, I'd like to think that he's not offended and that he can handle whatever I can throw at him.
ReplyDeleteMark - it definately does help to know there are others out here struggling with similar thoughts/doubts. I think starting this blog has been the best thing I've done about this whole situation in the past 4 years.
Faith[less], I sure have been through this phase before. Suddenly opening your eyes to, what seems to us, barbarism in the 'Good Book'. And this is the Foundation of the Faith??
ReplyDeleteAs a Bible believing Christian, who had read the Bible in its entirety, I knew all this stuff was in there. I revered the Bible anyway. But when my wife expressed an interest in Bible reading, and I caught myself intentionally skipping over the barbarism for fear of offending her Faith - I knew there was a problem....
@HeIsSailing - As I'm reading over passages like this I find myself wondering...if I was back on the side of faith...and conversing with someone like me (who is having trouble swallowing the whole of the Bible), how would I defend it? How would I explain that it still all fits in? How would I explain how it doensn't shake my faith? It's so easy to pretend it's not there (and I think that's what I had done in the past) but when it's all you can really see, it makes it a whole lot harder.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry for your pain, Faith[less.] Alas, there are no clever words—no pithy statements—to resolve it. You believe strongly, and to question or dare lose that belief is as traumatic as losing a close relationship.
ReplyDeleteHaving been there myself, I wish I could say, “Here is a neat solution,” or “Utilize this resolution and all will be well.” Life does not oblige so willing.
I can only say I (and many others) have been there, and are with you now.
Wow, tall order. Let me give you some benefit of what I have learned.
ReplyDeleteJob: this is an independent writer, perhaps the most beautifully written in all the Hebrew testament. The writer did not believe in an afterlife. He uses the foil of "satan" as the means to set up the exchange, the wager if you will. But satan is not the satan of the new Testament. Satan in the time of the writing was a "devils advocate" in the court of God, as people of that time saw it.
Does it reflect God's true action? No reason to think that it does, but the point is to show God's unfathomable "otherness" beyond human comprehension. Job in the end accepts this as right.
The story is not meant to be real. It is a fabulous story meant to highlight man's inability to reason to God's power and omnipotence.
Jeremiah: This reflects the Jewish understand of the time that child sacrifice was still acceptable. While they practiced it not as often, it was common throughout the region and is found in other texts in the OT as well. There are places were it suggests that God accepts this. This God portrayal of genocide is reflective more of how gods in general were perceived in the middle east than anything else. The hebrews were simply reflecting what was true of all the religions and peoples they knew. It should not be seen as accurate as to God.
Exodus: No God doesn't condone slavery, but the writer lives in a world where slavery is everywhere accepted, so he assumes God allows it. Note that perhaps the rules regarding slaves were more lenient than was otherwise common, protecting slaves to a greater degree. I would have to research this.
con't
ReplyDeleteExodus: as regards the hardening of the heart. These passages were written either during the reign of King David, or during and after the Babylonian exile. They reflect the serious power that God has, the abilities he has. This was essential in understanding that after the exile, people could feel confident that God had no deserted and had always specially cared for them. They are urged to return and rebuilt Jerusalem and these newly written "history" coalesces them as a people, special to God.
Exodus: killing of the first born. Of course this makes God out to be a killer of children, the innocents. There are plenty of passages like this, especially during the Joshua wars against all the Canaanites. Often all were to be executed.This again reflects a commonality of other peoples and cultures in the area. It was the way things were assumed to be. Always be aware that this is an interpretation of a very old oral tradition that goes back more than a thousand years before it is ever written down.
Numbers: the Hebrews have to find a way to justify their killing of innocent people who possessed the land. They laid it on God. In addition, there were not nearly as much of this as the bible alludes to. The archaeological evidence belies a good deal of it. Jehrico for instance was not razed as the bible suggested. It had been hundreds of years before. Also, the taking over of the lands now known as Palestine took hundreds of years to accomplish and there is plenty of records that suggest that the Hebrews lived peaceably with their neighbors for long periods between wars.
Samuel: Never saw this before, but even satan originated from God if God creates all, right? Again, this is the writer's interpretation as he tries to make a point.
Luke: Jesus is arguably the one who is closest in communion with God. He reflects in his being and actions who God really is. It is not that God changed, It is that as time goes on, hopefully man's understanding of God changes and grows. That seems to be the case when we look at the writings of the bible on a timeline. We, over time, develop a better and clearer understanding of this God. We stop attributing our bad actions onto him. We stop creating him in our image and start realizing that he is very different than us, more like Jesus alluded to?
There is nothing to be sad about. You are sad because, I surmise you are still really thinking that the bible is supposed to be inerrant. It simply is not. It is not God's words to us, but man's words to us, reflecting man's understanding. Inspired no doubt by a love of God and a desire to reflect accurately what was believed. As time goes on, we refine and improve our beliefs, and so does the bible. The God portrayed in the NT, most of it at least, reflect this growth. Then we were infants, we are perhaps addolescents now. We continue to grow.
Sorry for the length. Hope it helps a bit.
I wish I had a way to fix the pain. But at least take comfort in that you aren't alone (online at least). Remember to live life. The sadness is an emotional response that will lessen with time, or it has with me, to some degree. Rather, I'm just too numb and tired to feel sad over this anymore. Life is way too precious. With time, I think you'll be there too. Wherever you end up on this journey, I think eventually, you will be content, so take comfort in that. I try to divide my time reading blogs by people that will help me...so I browse smart progressive Christian blogs and smart compassionate atheists/skeptics (my blogroll has a list). I've found that my own natural inclination is the atheist viewpoint, so I do spend more time on Christian blogs. I don't engage in too much arguing, because I've found it just frustrates me terribly. There was a recent discussion on Mark's blog (poor Mark!) and I've had to exit, because I knew it was just going to pull me away from Christianity, but for unnecessarily reasons (battling inerrancy).
ReplyDeletep.s. You will note a confusion and a lack of resolution in my responses. I'm worn out. I hate apologetics and apologetic discussions. My Bible is dusty, because if I open it, I will despair. Instead, I'm trying to live life right now, enjoying it for what it is, even if it is all there is, yet hoping for something more. I want to read Elizabeth Gaskell's North and South. I want to figure out what lens to buy for my camera. I need to clean my house and figure out what to do about next school year for my daughter. For those reasons and many more (I don't even like theology, I'd much rather spend the time doing something else, I got stuck in agnosticism - no decision;)
ReplyDeleteDagoodS offered me some excellent advice on my own blog. I was having a particularly "down" day and my post reflected that. His advice was just to remember to breathe, and basically to paraphrase what he said, to find things you enjoy doing and remember to do the everyday stuff. That has helped me immensely and I'm finding I'm settling in with some acceptance and a bit more peace. Like A Child has some good suggestions, too. Essentially knowing once you come out of the "funk" that life really does go on whether you can make a decision or not. It comforts me to read stories of others. Some have settled the matter quickly and some have taken 15 or so years. Don't let that scare you. After DagoodS gentle reminder to me I remembered that I have a life to live and I don't have to have all the answers yesterday. I can live in today. Just know that my heart breaks with you.
ReplyDelete@D'Ma - I definately do need to take those moments...days...weeks...months of time where I...just breathe...just live...and give myself a break from this faith crisis. And even though what I said in the blog is 100% true - it's not ALWAYS at the forefront of my mind like it was at the time I wrote that. That's one of the reasons I had to put all these thoughts on the shelf for such a long time. For the most part they seem to only be tolerable in small amounts. And although I am in NO way glad that you are suffering and your heart is breaking along with mine - it is nice to know that others are out there who "feel my pain" and can identify with what I'm thinking about. My hope is that we won't be here forever (or even for that much longer).
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ReplyDelete@DagoodS - thank you for your comfort. Life is often not as "nice and neat" as I'd like it to be...better to acknowledge that than continue to try and force it into being something it's not I suppose...
ReplyDelete@witshadows - you pose some interesting points in reference to the scriptures I posted. I'm wondering (I could probably guess...) what your overall feeling is of the Bible. Is none of it to be taken as literal? None of it 100% reliable? I suppose it's just because I've been told all my life that the Bible is the foundation of everything - completely accurate, completely infallible...etc. that I find these scriptures (and others like them) to be such a hindrance to my faith. Perphaps if I was able to change the way I looked at the Bible, it wouldn't be such a road block??
ReplyDelete@Like a Child - I suppose I could call myself stuck in agnosticism as well...I sometimes wonder if being indecided is worse than the other options (Christianity or Atheism...or some other religion)...it can be so frustrating - I find myself going back and forth like you seem to - at one time all I can focus on is the questions and the lack of certainty - at other times it couldn't be farther from my mind - perhaps it's just a defense mechanism of sorts.
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